The passage I want to do a dialogue on this year comes towards the end of the chapter. Theoden has been rescued from Grima's clutches and realizes Eomer, whom he had imprisoned after his return from the battle with the Orcs, has acted in the realm's interest all along, even though he did so in defiance of the king's order.
‘I owe much to Eomer,’ ´ said Theoden. ‘Faithful heart may have froward tongue.’
"What is it to be faithful?""To serve despite hardship - when it would be easier to turn away."
"So not a fair-weather friend."
"No. Faithfulness is reliability incarnate, a steadfast anchor in the tumultuous seas of uncertainty."
"Is faithfulness friendship?"
"Not always, it could be subservient (or patronage)."
"But it must be friendly."
"Also no. As we see here. Sometimes our friends can be faithful to us by joining us on our campaigns, or by cheering us on. But sometimes we are going astray - a faithful friend will steer us back."
"Or abandon us, as Eomer did?"
"We've already discussed the problems with Eomer's decision, though that was in the context of leadership. In friendship abandoning a friend in need is not comparable - though it is sometimes required."
"How can faithlessness be required?"
"There are many relationships in which one's faithfulness is exploited. If one is in a toxic relationship, friendship or romantic or familial, I think it is necessary to break away from the relationship."
"Is this ethics?"
"It is unethical to be the toxic person. It is ethical to help your friends out of those relationships. If you are in it, I think it is right to try to get out. I don't know if ethical is exactly the right word."
"But this is the froward tongue. To be wilful and disobedient. The faithful heart, one who loves a toxic person, must display the froward tongue, or else they will be swallowed by the toxicity. It must be kept at bay - to compromise is to invite eventual dissolution."
"But now we've gotten off topic."
"Have we? Grima was being toxic to the realm, and he certainly was having a toxic affect on Theoden. Eomer was right, in your words, to get out."
"That's true."
"Eomer was clear-eyed. He knew Thoden's values is committed to serve them. Sometimes this means fighting off Orcs who were encroaching on their land. But sometimes this means disobeying bad orders. “It takes a great deal of bravery to stand up to our enemies, but just as much to stand up to our friends.”"
"Our friends and loved ones can be wrong. Not in a political sense, but in the sense of their own good. An alcoholic friend needs an intervention, not a wingman, though they will resent you for the former."
"But we must always be careful when doing things for someone else's own good."
"Indeed, we've discussed that in some cases action is ethically required however, it is as important to ensure such a decision is not wrongfully justified."
"We, too, can be wrong. We should strive to keep our relations' best interest at heart, acting in them even at risk of our standing in their eyes. And we should seek to surround ourselves with those willing to do the same. Faithfulness must be to values, not to people. People are too fickle to deserve it."
"So we should be willing to desert our relations if they lose their values?"
"No! We should try to guide them back to those values. But if they refuse, then yes. If you follow a person, they may lead you astray. If you follow a value, you may still go astray, but it is not the value's fault. Values should be the north star of a life, and with it we can guide not just ourselves but also our relations. If they will go with us - and of course our values will not be exactly the same as others - then they are worth having in our lives. If they will go a worse course, at some point we must separate from them, or else we will separate from everyone else. Do not lose the whole flock for the wandering sheep and all that."
"So we do not desert them, but they desert us?"
"That phrasing will comfort us, but ultimately we did leave them somewhere on the road. But our ethics must be realistic, and I think it is uncommon for those we've associated with to change so suddenly and dramatically that we must do something like that. Generally, such change is gradual. It is also mutual. They have found some other guide in the night sky. We have deserted each other."
"But we still should try to keep them on the path."
"We must. And even be open to the possibility that they are right, and we are wrong. But even then, if we do join them, it is to follow values - not them. And if we do, we must doo what we can to bring others with us."
"Our heart must be faithful to values, but our tongue must be froward to those who deviate."
"And throughout it all, we must allow a little doubt, and always find time for self-reflection."
"How can faithlessness be required?"
"There are many relationships in which one's faithfulness is exploited. If one is in a toxic relationship, friendship or romantic or familial, I think it is necessary to break away from the relationship."
"Is this ethics?"
"It is unethical to be the toxic person. It is ethical to help your friends out of those relationships. If you are in it, I think it is right to try to get out. I don't know if ethical is exactly the right word."
"But this is the froward tongue. To be wilful and disobedient. The faithful heart, one who loves a toxic person, must display the froward tongue, or else they will be swallowed by the toxicity. It must be kept at bay - to compromise is to invite eventual dissolution."
"But now we've gotten off topic."
"Have we? Grima was being toxic to the realm, and he certainly was having a toxic affect on Theoden. Eomer was right, in your words, to get out."
"That's true."
"Eomer was clear-eyed. He knew Thoden's values is committed to serve them. Sometimes this means fighting off Orcs who were encroaching on their land. But sometimes this means disobeying bad orders. “It takes a great deal of bravery to stand up to our enemies, but just as much to stand up to our friends.”"
"Our friends and loved ones can be wrong. Not in a political sense, but in the sense of their own good. An alcoholic friend needs an intervention, not a wingman, though they will resent you for the former."
"But we must always be careful when doing things for someone else's own good."
"Indeed, we've discussed that in some cases action is ethically required however, it is as important to ensure such a decision is not wrongfully justified."
"We, too, can be wrong. We should strive to keep our relations' best interest at heart, acting in them even at risk of our standing in their eyes. And we should seek to surround ourselves with those willing to do the same. Faithfulness must be to values, not to people. People are too fickle to deserve it."
"So we should be willing to desert our relations if they lose their values?"
"No! We should try to guide them back to those values. But if they refuse, then yes. If you follow a person, they may lead you astray. If you follow a value, you may still go astray, but it is not the value's fault. Values should be the north star of a life, and with it we can guide not just ourselves but also our relations. If they will go with us - and of course our values will not be exactly the same as others - then they are worth having in our lives. If they will go a worse course, at some point we must separate from them, or else we will separate from everyone else. Do not lose the whole flock for the wandering sheep and all that."
"So we do not desert them, but they desert us?"
"That phrasing will comfort us, but ultimately we did leave them somewhere on the road. But our ethics must be realistic, and I think it is uncommon for those we've associated with to change so suddenly and dramatically that we must do something like that. Generally, such change is gradual. It is also mutual. They have found some other guide in the night sky. We have deserted each other."
"But we still should try to keep them on the path."
"We must. And even be open to the possibility that they are right, and we are wrong. But even then, if we do join them, it is to follow values - not them. And if we do, we must doo what we can to bring others with us."
"Our heart must be faithful to values, but our tongue must be froward to those who deviate."
"And throughout it all, we must allow a little doubt, and always find time for self-reflection."
"Sounds difficult!"
"As always, ethics is choosing the harder way."
"As always, ethics is choosing the harder way."
This had been a patreon-supported project, but that proved too annoying to maintain. If you would like to financially support this project, drop $1.11 (or any amount, I suppose) into my Venmo!
ChatGPT contributed about 10% to this post's final version.
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